Practice and Performance Psychology With Greg Spence and Mark Bain: Part 3

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[Music] hi and welcome you’re watching a wind work subscriber update video by mysterymastery.com and the title of today’s video is exploring the psychology and process of practice and performance featuring trumpet and performance psychology guru mark bain of the tasmanian symphony orchestra and yours truly greg spence check this out many people struggle today to improve on the trumpet and this is because they misunderstand how the instrument works and don’t know what or how to practice effectively most methods just offer more and more exercises and this is

where they fall short they fail to uncover the real problems luckily there’s a way to get far better results and it’s much faster than i actually ever thought possible the amazing windworks course helped me to improve much faster than other methods by revealing the flaws in my belief systems and my approach to brass playing with just a few drills and exercises a day i felt my mind and body change like never before and my playing was freer and easier than i could ever imagine it works

by eliminating inefficient playing habits and providing a structured and achievable program suitable for players of all standards simply go to mysterymastery.com that’s mysterydemastery.com and sign up for the wing works course now it takes less than a minute it’s free to sign up now and it’ll change your life forever click the link in the description below to get started so i’m getting my trumpet out there playing and the butterflies are starting to get quite erratic don’t have a blow green don’t overblow and i’m just humming just

reminding myself don’t blow harder than that don’t blow harder than that if you’re not sure what i’m talking about and you don’t believe me you’re a trumpet player come and check out weworks it’s all explained right so i did that for a while and the butterflies went away that’s weird that’s really weird now i told you that story and what did you say yeah well that’s stimulating your vagal vagus nerve so yeah which is the nerve that basically calms you down to a certain extent um

and it’s part of the uh the autonomous nervous system so yeah so i’ve never heard of it and someone up here said i was telling her about it and she’s gone oh that’s the um vagus nerve and i’ve gone to what las vegas what no no and so i went and researched it apparently with anxiety fear got a performance threat failure identity ego this is not good psychology right now then all of a sudden the body the fight and flight system starts to tense up and

the vagus nerve becomes active or rigid or something i haven’t done enough anatomical research i like lots of very basic ideas the body gets tight it stops the flow of serotonin so when we hum um the vibratory effect of humming massages the vagus nerve and it starts to loosen and serotonin starts flowing through the body and there’s a sense of calm now i could have had someone tell me that and i would go yeah yeah whatever never meditated you know it was a discovery of just

in a day in the life of me and it was a profound profound experience and then to learn what cultures have been doing for thousands of years and actually feel it happen just hum just hum with my dystonia people getting someone with vocal dystonia even if it’s a guitar or a piano to get them to drop everything breathing through the nose that can trigger results or responses you know in the body really interesting stuff but the hum is a calming process that i would recommend everyone

do for efficiency on their playing and singing for performance anxiety you have the focal dystonia things because if you can’t sit there and hum what chances with a calm mind and calm body what chances you’ve got at picking up a horn and playing music good luck you know so that was a really super duper wild experience to sit there and then my last gig in melbourne was the west side story again sitting next to shane hooten amazing trumpet player and again the the um the nerves

are up you know side of stage hmm sat down [Music] f sharp for 350 beats calm relax enjoying it what a nice experience versus the the elevated heart rate and the body that’s tense and freaking out fear we can eradicate it we can eradicate it you know it mark and i know it oh i i this is interesting this is where i’d have to disagree with you a little bit on that yeah i mean yeah i think um i i get what you’re saying as well

and i like i hum as well i think that’s it’s great also for developing your mental model of what you want to sound like and developing that singing sound and really relaxed and open um my strategies for when i when i coach when i teach is not eradication because in reality we can’t get rid of fear um because we’ve got part of the brain and we’ve spoken about this as well part of the brain called the amygdala which is basically switches on when you’re feeling fear

and that stores fear memories as well and you can’t switch it off and so my approach is more about being more flexible when fear comes about and and accepting it so um like previous approaches they’ve sort of gone to the control route of okay we need to be really calm when we play and i understand that it feels really good um but my approach is that realistically we’re not going to be super calm when we play so let’s be more flexible when those sort of feelings

and emotions come about and so it’s about developing it’s called psychological flexibility um and so you’re you’re being more flexible and so you can you can be completely freaking out and i do this on a regular basis you know you can be quite up and agitated but still perform really really well and so it’s about being flexible when that comes about these are just different approaches as well and this is why the beauty of psychological research is that it can apply to different people in different

circumstances and again test don’t trust you guys out there you have to you have to find what works for you absolutely and and a lot of like the approach that i take and the research that i use for some people they’ll be like no i want to feel calm thanks i don’t want to be freaking out on stage and so i’ll be like okay that’s fine we can take a different different route but i think if we can accept our experience we’ll be more accepting of

our experience also of our outcomes then that reduces naturally our performance anxiety or you know our fear of failure fear of disappointing others or all that sort of stuff and fear of disappointing ourselves so they’re two um uh parallel working in hand approaches yep because we have to have strategies because it’s going to happen yep are you scared of spiders uh some of them yeah so if a spider crawled across your face and sat there and sort of doing that like would you freak out a

bit yeah probably would you yeah yeah good so you wake up in the morning and you’ve got a tarantula just doing that and making it oh that reminds me of a story i shouldn’t say it on here i’m not even going to say it but it’s disgusting about it eating dead skin on someone’s chest they’ve heard the huntsman they heard the crackling sorry i said that out loud so you wake up you’ve got a tarantula on your head and you freak out and you tell everyone

about it horrendous experience you wake up the next day oh stupid damn tarantula again wake up the next day are you for real next day eventually you gotta wake up expecting a tarantula’s not gonna bother you it’s there yeah but you’re just desensitized to it so my idea and how realistic it is is the the point of difference here where we we’re dealing in a world of realistic emotionally driven species that we are we are we’re emotional we do have human emotions however there are yogis

that can take drugs and not get zapped out of their brain and there are mercenaries who can have a match under their hand and not feel pain right so do we want to go to that extreme well maybe maybe not in dystonia cases we kind of have to because it’s either play or not play and when their brain has gone you the body is fighting against the instrument i kid you not i’ve seen and i’ve seen and this there’s no issue in the body until the

trumpet or the instrument gets involved it’s so freaking powerful it’s unbelievable right so where does it start does it start the night before you go to sleep and you start thinking about spiders on your face that’s not a good psychology to have before you go to sleep you have a psychology of i’m going to wake up there’s not going to be a spider on my face what does that look like oh that would be nice nice crunchy crunchy crunch with your face but it’s all the

idea in the mind what’s happening what’s the reality of the situation and the reality is that i’ve got a fear what are you afraid of and then we find out what we’re afraid of what can we do under any circumstance what’s one plus one equal three no two oh yeah and eventually you’ll get up on stage at carnegie hall and go it’s two so and until you’ve had so many experiences under the pump and so you’ve got there you’ve gone through this uh process of just

performance after performance after and of course it depends on repertoire oh today we’re doing something there’s no pressure on me i’ll just no drama all of a sudden you’ve got the bomb and it’s you you know then the psychology is different it shouldn’t be different it is different but it shouldn’t be so it comes back to what can i do can i sit down with my eyes closed and hum um stillness yep can i wiggle my fingers around and i tap my foot and i go

can you pick up a tissue and a visualizer all day every day i could do that on stage at carnegie hall fantastic can you put the mouthpiece where your visualizer was yep terrific no sound coming out that’s okay we won’t go down the barsing not buzzing thing now that would be for different chat can i put the visualizer on am i nervous because i’m sitting on stage at carnegie hall and going and putting the lead pipe on yep okay so let’s go back a step what

i want you to imagine is what it feels like to sit on the stage at carnegie hall in stillness you’re going to walk out and you’re going to sit there with your eyes closed and you’re going to breathe in through your nose you know people would find that really threatening until they don’t that’s like a spider on your face sitting on stage people watching me hang on what’s the demand well i gotta walk out on stage sit on a chair breathe in through my nose go

i can find you a thousand tradies around here that would be able to i’m gonna pay a thousand bucks to walk out on stage at carnegie hall and breathing through your nose and do this they’d be like bloody oak mate right oh they’d walk out there and there you doing where’s my thousand bucks thanks for coming so a musician might struggle with that process more than average joe think about that that’s really wild isn’t it so then what’s the expectation what’s the command how far do

we take it back what’s stillness can i be still at home still mind still body yep can i be still in local band practice yep can i be still sitting on stage with no playing demand and then as the demands increase where does the intensity of the fear increase and it comes back to visualizing belief and confidence so i truly believe in the eradicative approach only because not going down that path with dystonia that people i’ve had so many experiences of people going i don’t talk

about it i’m over it but i don’t talk about it secretly mark don’t tell anyone my mind i go they’re not over it because they’re too scared to talk about it what’s dystonia it’s fear yeah until you can talk about it and explain it a great great quote to remember is what you resist will persist i love it i love it so any anything that you are avoiding moving away from it’s just going to get stronger yeah and that’s we’re approaching it as well and and

approaching it with that sort of mindset of how can i get better through this what can i take from any experience that i have what can i learn how can i grow as opposed to just self-judgment because i think a lot of it comes down to a lot of it boils down to self-judgment ego attachment and just you know we’re focusing on ourselves or we’re not necessarily focusing on other people judging us but what we actually think of ourselves yeah absolutely and uh yeah so if

you can always approach that as just be curious with everything as well yeah it’s really fascinating stuff my friend love it yeah it’s really really really wild and and like i said at the start uh the the work that you’re doing is just so important so important and i’m just excited to see you posting and it’s just a particular day this all came about because i’d seen one of your posts on facebook and then i was on messenger reading someone’s message and your face popped up

the top oh thanks mark hello universe yeah it’s funny how that happens hey mate how you going look love the work that you’ve been doing i reckon we should chat we’ve got some things in common and this is such an important message and as you and the dystonia is very very unknown unexplained and it’s kind of under the carpet people just leave they get the yips and they leave performance anxiety is everywhere and it’s probably not sponsored well that’s enough in orchestras to look after the

mental well-being of the performers yeah i mean that was part of the reason why i started performance under pressure is that i know what it’s like to be really scared on stage and to be freaking out and you know just being gripped by fear and i know and now having done the research i really know all of like it affects everyone like rarely do we get people walking on stage feeling really you know in control and you know focusing on what they value in their music

and focusing on producing beautiful sounds and things like that so i just saw it as an opportunity like i in my position fortunately i can speak to people and they will actually listen because they go oh mark he’s a professional so he should know what he’s talking about so i feel like i’m trying to use my voice in a way that’s actually empowering other people and and trying to get really good information out but also trying to break down the barrier of fear and you know

anxiety with people and let’s talk about it let’s actually break this down and you know we’re all scared monkeys running around the world basically that’s okay i’m scared too good that’s fine but let’s talk about it let’s break down some of these these barriers so that we can all become more fulfilled in what we do absolutely and there will be people out there listening going oh come on guys you you know a bit of nervous nerves there’s nervous energy is a good thing to get the

adrenaline pumping and get out and give that performance neither of us would disagree with that word debilitating is my answer to that if it’s controllable and the energy and stuff can be used for good leverage that yep but if it’s detracting from your performance well then that’s a real problem yeah uh and that’s you know i used to have oh just sean sorry mate i just saw a message from you i’ve had similar thoughts using a practice mute in reference to chops feeling off it’s going

to feel different i like that someone practicing totally got diverted then thank you sean good to hear from you um uh we need to get out there and have a musical message and confidence in our ability to do it and if we don’t like our sound or we don’t like our technical ability well then go practice more what do you want to sound like listen to lots of people and sit there and practice until you can and then practice too you can do it every time

but again i’ve seen people lose golf tournaments from having a bad day someone who could drive the ball straight and cut straight had a day where they didn’t drive the ball straight didn’t touch straight and that cost them millions of dollars i don’t think in my existence there’s ever going to be an opportunity to have to play a note for four million dollars god i think it might only be a mezzo piano a in the yeah if that depends if there’s four million dollars writing on

it you’re gonna start asking some questions it’s just a mezzo piano i agree it’s no big deal well that’s i mean that’s an important point actually it’s like um recognizing when those performances are that you feel more up and more like you feel more writing on it that’s a determining factor of performance anxiety as well it’s just like if you i say like if you’re gonna play twinkle twinkle little star okay easy peace no worries if you play it for your cat and dog at home

no stress if you go and play it for four million dollars all of a sudden your level of expectation your level of success goes up so you think oh i have to play really well in order for this to be deemed successful so then actually working out what that level of success is and then you can anticipate those sort of concerts in the future as well and this opens up a whole other psychology of reality as well is the fact that no matter how you played

it it might be a personal best you might have played the twinkle twinkle little stars version of your life yes and there’ll be 97 out of 100 trumpet players sitting there going i would have i would have done this i would have done it that way i wouldn’t have done that i would have done this you’re never going to impress people don’t try it don’t try and impress people because there’s always someone better but they can’t do what you can do mark does what mark does

and he’s very good at it greg does what greg does and he’s not bad either it’s not i’m not lee morgan or maurice andre raphael mendes maynard ferguson clark terry but i’ve got something to offer everyone’s got something to offer and imagine if we’re all the same that’d be horrendous how boring would that be like if we all played exactly if there was if there was a perfect version that we have to play how boring is that like everyone can bring their own their own slant

to it as well and like on this topic it’s like anyone going for an audition it’s not about pleasing the panel um it’s always about playing your version of it yes and playing that with conviction because you are a one and only so you you can only sound like you so trying to please everyone you’re wasting your time you’re giving the power to the panel instead of empowering yourself so those people they might all do it differently might like or dislike what you did and you

might have played outplayed yourself that might be get more musical maturity take time don’t panic yeah if you love it enough if you want it enough you’ll get it keep working or none of them will like the way you did it but you sounded amazing and give them some time in the section and they’ll that we want that asset in our because we’ve all got weaknesses not a great sound but limited range got an amazing technique for that stuff but he’s not good at that stuff

so let’s not put him there but let’s do this sort of thing we all expect to be perfect at every single element and our life is about refine refine refine but not everyone can do everything as you say thank goodness for that but i remember a workshop actually i think shane organized it and it was an awesome workshop i got lots from it and i got outside and i heard a group of people going oh you know but it wasn’t he’s one of the world’s best

players and these little people this little melbourne trumpet players that we are we’re you know just little guys playing trumpet uh you know i didn’t like the way he did that i didn’t how about why did he do that i wonder why that was important to him what that uh and that happened twice one was an arturo sandoval presentation and one was um i think it was gary grant and i’m hearing these are the world’s best getting up and talking about their experiences which are a

hundred percent valid because it’s theirs right and i’m hearing these negative comments and i’ve gone that was really profound for me because i’m having to get up and do these having to i love doing it but getting up and doing master classes at universities and midwest clinic and and itg and whatever people are going to disagree people are not going to like it some will i like them some won’t okay and then the people that i really like will say i didn’t like that because because

yeah and then the conversation starts those conversations don’t take place but they’re the important ones i would get you to consider there’s the line i’ll get you to consider i like the way thinking about that but i would get you to consider such and such and that’s where serious change happens and we’re in the business you and i of asking questions challenging norms yeah and you’re gonna get resistance but we can’t be concerned about resistance because we’re both on a on a mission to help people

because the norms aren’t helping particular people there’s got to be alternative strategies absolutely yeah absolutely and i i definitely think if you there’s nothing wrong with liking or disliking something but yeah if you if you don’t like something i think asking more questions and saying gee what don’t i like about it and and generally it’s like i i hear a lot of students they say i just didn’t like it i’m like well that gives you zero information like yourself but also if you’re commenting on someone

and you say i don’t like your playing i mean how does that help them improve and also that gives you no information to dig deeper and find out what you actually didn’t like so so by really digging in and saying what was it that i didn’t like and even asking questions like you said like if you’ve got world-class musicians there ask them questions and find out what their reasoning behind their their version is once you understand that then you can say okay i see their perspective

that’s not for me they’re still great players but yeah yeah and and it’s i think the those players you can take it or leave it that’s fine but those great players they play with such conviction because they believe they’d like this is how it should sound this is my version bam um arnold jacob says it as well as like make statements don’t ask questions and the great musicians they make statements all the time they say this is my version now i don’t think i’ve listened to

any single musician and gone i would take 100 of them there’s always going to be stuff that is not you and that’s fine but then taking taking bits from them and learning and trying to incorporate that into your own playing but also being curious of the stuff that you don’t like and and that can also inform your future decisions and you just be like oh i didn’t like how they applied that so i’ll try something different but again digging deeper into this sort of stuff and

leaving the surface level stuff and as you said greg with with teaching and coaching it’s all about like i ask my my students tons of questions to get them to find out what their purpose is and what their what they really want to do and what they what they want to sound like not me what they want to sound like yes um because at the end of the day my sound concept will be different to yours which would be different to everyone else’s that’s not good

or bad that’s just how it is just the reality of it absolutely yeah some of my best friends are extraordinary trumpet players um but the music that they play is not something i appreciate it but it’s nothing that i want to do i i like it i’m impressed by it but i’ve got no desire to do it that doesn’t invalidate how freaking cool it is yep next to their own it’s really important absolutely then it comes down to perspective and it ties directly with when you’re

walking on stage i remember as a teenager um hearing on a radio in the middle of the night maynard ferguson playing fireshaker and lee morgan playing um sidewinder and from that moment i’ve got i don’t know what this music is because i was a corner player in a brass band that’s cool i remember seeing an orchestra and seeing guys sitting there for three and a half hours and this i’ve got cop [ __ ] for this but sitting it’s a joke it’s a gag sitting there

for three and a half hours and then you pick up the trumpet and go and then you sit down and wait to go to the bar i’m joking but i remember welcome to my world so i just remember as a kid well maybe a little bit yeah just seeing that going no that’s not i get that there’s skill involved i don’t want to do that but when i heard maynard and lee morgan i’m like wow and then i’ve discovered james morrison it’s like wow um i’m

never going to be lee morgan or maynard ferguson or james morrison but for years it’s like try and tick all these boxes but the blend of the range and the style and the maynard the lyricism of lee the gusto of james just performer it’s like that’s what makes us who we are and we’ve got to be happy to share it getting up and talking to people is so nothing like i ever anticipated i’d be doing sitting here talking to you having this conversation is nothing that

i ever ever anticipated i would be doing yep but i’m trying to separate i don’t talk about my playing or my career much at the course at all because i don’t want my teaching my my choice of being a commercial music trumpet player to detract from this important information that we’ve got to share um and that in my case it really really does i’ve got stories of i won’t go into being uh not criticized but um almost disrespected because i’ve not played mala5 but our wonderful

friend dave elton he goes all right i said to him if i ever had to play mala5 hey dave how are you buddy um if i ever had to play mula5 get dole triple zero right and he said if i ever had to play the solo in the mood that would be i’d be dead yeah yeah but that’s what like again everyone we both practice it and be able to do it though yeah but everyone has something different to offer and everyone has different value sets

as well and different perspectives and that’s where i think it’s it’s super important as soon as you say i don’t like something or i don’t like that style you’re shutting yourself off from learning opportunities and from actually gaining a different perspective and and so this is great like far out what you do greg it’s just like i can’t do it but i have massive admiration and i’m like far out it sounds amazing and um and like you said like some people sitting in my position playing

tonics and dominance in a mozart symphony that’s not their thing but for me it’s like cool i enjoy it it’s good fun um so it just depends what you want and also what you value in your instrument as well and and really connecting with that and i do a lot of work with with values with my students and with my with my clients it’s like really connecting with why you actually pick up your instrument every day yeah um and then you can actually be more curious

and you say okay what does that player do that sounds so great or it doesn’t sound so great what what can i take from them what can i learn from them and also what do i love about my own sound what do i love about my own playing and what do i love about myself that’s i was thinking about that before as you were saying something else and and it sounds weird but people most often we’re not soloists generally and if you’re going to be the

the concert soloist there’s a different psychology to someone generally who’s going to sit in the orchestra but hearing their sound putting their sound out there confidently i i find that that is a quite an issue with a lot of students dystonia or not that there is a lack of belief and confidence in the quality of the tone itself and if you don’t have that confidence in that sound that you want to share then you can have all the technique in the world you can have everything

going on you if you don’t believe in that that richness of that that soulful sound that your body can create through a piece of pipe the place to start i think that but that all just comes back to what do you hear in your head right what’s what’s sort of a sound yeah visualization we spoke about that before and it’s like what sort of a sound do you have in your head because that will come through your instrument so if that’s fuzzy and unclear you’re going

to be you know hoping that something comes out whereas if that’s crystal clear if you have beautiful sounds in your head that you’ve listened to and that you’re paying attention to when you make a great sound if that’s in your head then that’s going to come out your bill um and uh yeah i call it the portrait you’ve got that picture in your mind yeah and i used phil mickelson as a portrait in my mind at one stage because he’s a lefty yep and today i

had a moment i went out and played this morning and i had the picture in my head i had the feeling of it and i executed a drive that went dead straight as long as i can hit the very next shot i did the same thing and almost missed it [Laughter] i love that because that’s the learning process yeah and again errors people don’t like making errors and that’s that means people don’t like learning if you don’t like learning put the thing away and go and

do something else you know it’s um so important that you recognize the importance of making that error and when you feel that frustration building up that’s the release of acetylcholine and um norepinephrine epinephrine thank you very much so they’re the chemicals that get released going something’s wrong something’s wrong you didn’t do it right you didn’t do it right and then when you start to approximate the right outcome dopamine sends the message to the brain just repeat that yeah do it over and over i cannot wait

for the day like we’ve been sitting here for what an hour and a half or something oh yeah close like two hours oh no just pick up the trumpet player high c no problem i’d do that all day long not an issue but i can’t drive a ball 250 meters straight down the fairway yet yeah yeah just feel and repetition you know um tim arum i like what i’m hearing greg spence but i’ve got to i’ve got to go because i’m on the fourth hole i

like it someone’s listening from the golf course hello nice [Music] [Laughter] if we’ve been going for two hours we probably should stop i might even i might we’ll put this on youtube but i might cut it up and and do two yeah we might have to i was complaining about andrew huberman’s three hour long podcasts and here we are doing a two-hour one right oh well i cannot made it so good to catch up that’s great good stuff i think it’s really greg missed the first

part hoping it’s available later john it will be mate it’ll be on youtube i’ll put it through the site uh meet mark uh check his stuff out um john teaches at the uh oh we’ve got the right i said orange county school um i can’t remember the proper name of it uh but these kids would be benefit from this i’m sure so hopefully this gets shared far and wide because it doesn’t matter how old you are whether you’re eight years old or 15 years old or

50 years old the issues are everywhere everyone deals with it and as we’ve said over and over it’s so important that the conversation uh happens happens absolutely yeah and there’s no shame part of the super focal dystonia thing it’s embarrassment it’s shame and so that they are deep deep emotions so to turn that that’s amygdala stuff right yeah trauma that’s right it’s ptsd yep um to turn that around is possible it is possible yeah um it’s just the power of visualization and positive thinking and belief

what can i do are you confident that you can sit there with your eyes closed and hum on any stage in the world yep yep okay then let’s go step by step by step after that and eventually if you’re prepared to put that work in and it’s a lot of work but if you’re prepared to put that work in i i have to live in the eradicative life for dystonia totally yeah yeah i get that i get that yeah yeah um but i i there’s an

oboe player who put corks on his clarinet pads on oboe pads excuse me to make it feel like a different instrument and it worked until it didn’t dystonia travels it sorted it out because the underlying fears were still there so i need to eradicate but yeah um yeah mate ah it’s been great fantastic yeah i mean as i said at the start as well i love the work that you do i love that you’re opening up the conversation and you know trying to get good information

out there and helping people like that’s that’s what i try and do so i think we’re you know two peas in a pod which is great what it’s all about i lost contentment from performing yeah i still do some gigs here and there i just got asked to do some theater show in on the gold coast for a few days so that’ll be fun nice but i get contentment from talking to this is better than any gig sitting here talking to you and helping people and

seeing them improve and get through issues you know um so but hopefully we get to come down and make some noise with you guys at some stage totally that’d be great yep and if not then we can just catch up for a beer and talk some more um what’s it called the salamanca let’s go yes i was just there this morning so it was good i bet it’s nice and warm too i was up on the mountains there’s a mountain just outside of hobart and it

was snowing uh so i was up there with my kids last week and throwing snowballs at them so that was fun but uh yeah so it’s pretty cold that’s why i’m up here yeah fair enough awesome my friend girl thanks mate appreciate it that was great let’s do another one we’ll talk about it absolutely we didn’t ask questions but that maybe we’ll put this out and we’ll do another one questions for next time yeah well that’s right yeah and i’ll figure out how to um i

couldn’t add you for some reason in that facebook event we’ll sort it out we’ll work it out i love making errors it’s fun nice one mate thank you so much really appreciate it love your work [Music] [Applause] [Music] ah